What is happening to the dance?

I have posted several times about the bad behavior of men and how it is unacceptable especially from men in power who have used that to take advantage of women (and men) who are put in positions where they are scared to say anything because they are told not to and mostly because they are concerned about the impact on their careers.  Someone finally spoke up and there has been a wake-up call that has spread like fire.  There are a few industries who have yet to be drawn in but it is only time before we see them unravel too.

Yet, there is a huge difference between powerful sexual harassment and stupidity.  I am fearful of putting them in one big pot as it minimizes the really bad offenders.  And so I ask the question, what is happening to the dance?  The dance being men flirting with women and women flirting with men.  Over the past 50 years, a lot has changed in regards to sex and dating.  Perhaps it is the long-tail of birth control.  There were the days in the 1950’s when if a single woman got pregnant, she was ostracized and looked down upon, but now if you are responsible, you can have sex freely without getting pregnant until you want to get pregnant.  That has created a different playing field for women who feel empowered to hook-up with men for a one-night stand where 50 years ago that was shunned. There is a slew of dating apps that are used for that alone.  Now it is the norm but perhaps the expectations of women are different from men when it comes to hooking up and it shouldn’t be.

There is also social media.  You can take to the airways when an evening did not go as planned.  You can take to the airways when someone at work said something stupid or did something stupid.  Maybe it is the access to our smartphones that makes it easier to just relay what is going on in our heads.  Here is the thing, we all have voices and we need to use them.  If you meet on an app or meet someone at a party or a colleague asks you out and the evening takes a turn that you didn’t see coming, then speak up.  We can all say, this is not ok, no I do not want to go back to your place with you, please get your hand off my leg, thanks but no thanks, I am not interested in you and so forth.  Words are powerful and we are taught them as a young child to speak up.  Go into any 4-year-old class and the teacher says over and over again, “use your words”.  Speak up before writing a social media piece that destroys someone’s character that doesn’t deserve to be destroyed.

I am not minimalizing anything that happened to anyone but women and men put themselves out there in ways where the rules are changing and nobody seems quite sure of the rules.  Let’s use our voices in the moment not after the fact leaving the one person completely ignorant of their behavior until they are called out on the plate in a post.  Do it in the moment.  It is fun to dance but nobody can read someone’s mind, they can only understand clear concise words especially when they are yes or no

Comments (Archived):

  1. awaldstein

    Been on my mind.Driving some valuable and timely conversations.This article which you obviously saw is truly something to wrap our heads around and ties to your thesis.https://www.theatlantic.com

    1. Gotham Gal

      Absolutely

    2. panterosa,

      That article pissed me off, big time. “Grace” has decided that since she is disappointed in Aziz, and simply didn’t walk out, with numerous opportunities to do so, that she can be mad at herself by mud-slandering him in public for not being who she hoped for. And shame him, and get sympathy. That’s some nerve. A crappy date is as much your fault for sticking around, and passively wishfully waiting for things to happen according to your non-shared script means you really should just stay home and create your own fantasy world.

  2. pointsnfigures

    My daughter said the dance now goes like this-meet on a dating app, meet for coffee, go on a dinner date, third date is he cooks (or orders in at his apartment) because he expects you to sleep with him. Of course, our generation didn’t do that. The process usually took a little more time….and in generations prior (like @@SixgillBlog:disqus (teasing arnie)) and our parents generation it took even more time and might have waited until marriage.I have no idea but wonder what I would have been like if the only thing I had to do was swipe right or left to meet someone. In our day we actually had to go out and be in a certain place to physically meet people. Would the dopamine hit of technology changed my behavior? Would I have given enough time for an actual relationship to develop?Here is the thing. The female has ALL the power in this transaction. All of it. Birth control has certainly taken some of the risk away. But, society norms have also changed the game-and now we have brought in technology. Over the course of the last generation, females have ceded this power to men. I think it is time for females to take it back. Society is better when females control this transaction in my humble opinion.

    1. LE

      I have no idea but wonder what I would have been like if the only thing I had to do was swipe right or left to meet someone.I got married for the 2nd time prior to when those apps came out. That said I got divorced right around the time that online dating became popular. So I actually had 3 long term relationships as a result of online dating (5 yrs, 2 yrs, and now married from the 3rd).I have to say that compared to the way it was when I got married for the first time, to me it was literally the greatest thing in the world to have online dating. Not only was it fun, it was a way to meet someone that you would have never met w/o online dating. All the sudden you could easily identify the type of person that you think you would like and were compatible and attracted to and then try to write and get them to meet you. I can’t say enough about it and I am always surprised when I hear people whine about online dating and bad experiences. That said I put a great deal of effort into getting dates and it paid off like anything else that you dedicate yourself to.The woman that I married? I actually wrote to her thinking that she wouldn’t want to date me because of our age difference and her profession. I literally said in the email something that translated roughly to ‘so we can just be friends I think I would find each other interesting’. And that’s not something I ever did before. And it wasn’t some type of reverse psychology either.

    2. PhilipSugar

      My last comment on this thread. The reason why it is a fireable offense if I ask a co-worker to meet me my hotel room or my apartment (don’t have one) is because a foreseeable consequence might happen next. If that was not the case??? No harm, no foul. But no, we cannot have two standards.No way justifying if you made a bad decision, and no means no. But when you go up to Mike Tyson’s or Kobie Bryant’s hotel room at 2am?? Well I am not shocked.Is it right? Never. Are there abused women? Positively.I know the head DA for my State. You know who he fears the most on a rape trial??? A 50+ year old working class Mom. As my one friends Mom told me as we came in late. “Nothing good happens after Midnight!!!”

  3. Kelley Rose

    Well said. Well said.

  4. Anne Libby

    Fascinating book on this topic is sociologist Lisa Wade’s *American Hookup,* about the atmosphere on college campuses.(Last spring, I wrote about a conversation I had with Lisa: https://annelibby.wordpress

    1. Kirsten Lambertsen

      First thing I thought of with this week’s latest was this book and your writing about this issue.

      1. Anne Libby

        Thanks!

    2. panterosa,

      Looking forward to reading your piece and the book. Have you, or @kirstenlambertson delved into Orenstein’s Girls and Sex?I havent finished since my mother has my copy (and a gaping jaw of confusion from reading it). Mainly a bunch of feminist thinking women, teens and college age, have not learned to say they don’t want sex at those moments they don’t want it, and instead orally pleasure their date to get him out of their room. They are not conversant in the great yawning gap in their beliefs and desires, and their actions and communication skills. They also give other people more weight in how they look, essentially eclipsing how they feel – as IF you can only feel good, or in charge, when someone thinks you’re hot. It is really depressing. Especially since I have a teen daughter. She has read some of this with me. I have tried to erase some of the problematic signals which say sex is bad, that results in Orenstein’s point about the hugely incompatible double standard which rewards boys, and punishes girls for the same sexual acts.Sex is awkward, always has, is and will be. Learn how to connect with another, respectfully, listening, and speaking, and that will change.I agree this is a valuable conversation. In terms of danger, I was stalked very badly, so I do not minimize any of this. You just need to find the lioness inside you, and be very clear as to what you will engage in or not.

      1. Anne Libby

        I have not read this, and it sounds like a good companion piece to *American Hookup.*

      2. Kirsten Lambertsen

        I haven’t read ‘Girls and Sex’ but will add it to my list. At 8 years old, my daughter is just starting to have an awareness of it all.

    3. PhilipSugar

      I can tell you this. My office is on a 25k student campus that is 67% female. Time’s have changed since I went to school in the 1980’s, also the numbers were reversed.In no way, no way does this justify anything or any behavior.But I can tell you since when we go out to a certain place that people love for great pizza a ton of TV’s for sports, and drinks, it has changed. It used to be that men chased women, that is not the case where I live. It used to be we never heard graphic language used by women picking up men or saw outfits that even make me blush and wonder if I am in a strip club.We (business partner and I) are considered “Dad’s”(funny aside a parking attendant asked our young HR woman from MN if she was “settled in” during moving week, she adjusted her seatbelt and said yes, my business parter howled and yelled old man at me until it was pointed out he probably thought he was her other Dad)No issue, but what we see and hear literally has our jaws drop. We know professors, they agree. We have a very good looking younger male staffer from MN who is married get hit on three times. Actually he pointed out that when my business partner and I were howling that it was very embarrassing for the woman, so we don’t do that anymore.Cindy Gallop who has the site Make Love not Porn, sits there and says Men are influenced by Porn, but as a 50 year old self described “cougar” who picks up young men…..What the hell does she think, they are going to do and want?? Look in the mirror who influenced by Porn.Again, I do not diminish that there is bad behavior. I am gobsmacked at the Susan Fowler case. Just shit shocked. Your boss sends you text messages on your first day?! Text messages, first day?! Then HR response is basically “oh well” and he did it before?! Just stunning. Had to come from the top.But I am going to say Ellen Pao……well the jury said nope. Sleep with a partner (while I think you are married) get thrown out of Reddit??? That partner should be gone too, but not sure what happened.Again, I am not diminishing bad behavior, I think it happens all of the time.

      1. Gotham Gal

        Obv bad behavior happens all the time. We get to read about it daily. Times have changedWomen of the age you are describing were raised that they could do and be anything. That has bled into the behavior you are talking about. There is a lot of education that needs to be done. I point to the Aziz accusation from the young anonymous woman. She didn’t get what she wanted and it didn’t appear that he did anything wrong but why did she feel empowered to point that outSex education needs to start earlier than 20

        1. PhilipSugar

          I am not disagreeing one bit that there are men in power positions that exhibit HORRIBLE behavior. I’ve seen it. I’ve stopped it. Do I think there are men that are “gropers”? Hell yes. How can you grope a woman when you would never consider doing that to another man??Do I think bosses have done bad things to subordinates? Yes. I had to deal with it once. You slept with him on the road while intoxicated, and he thought it could continue. Not Acceptable. Not acceptable.But I do think there also is some buyers remorse. I think celebrities and sports athletes deal with it the most. If you are Ben Rothenlesberger and you have sex with an 19yr old girl who was in a bar (one could reasonably assume she was 21) had a button on saying DTF (Down to F) and then said get out of here I am going home, and you had a State Trooper with you, do I think you deserve to lose 5/16th’s of your salary that year??I’m sure you felt used, but…….

      2. Anne Libby

        Well the interesting thing that comes through in Lisa Wade’s book — and other stuff I’ve read by her — is that research shows that younger people on campus are actually not having a lot more sex than our peer group was in the 80s. They may be less active.What’s changed is more the message that careless hookups are “normal.” Thus if you aspire to be normal, this is what you should be doing. So it’s confusing for the people who don’t want to participate in this kind of behavior (because who in that age range doesn’t want to be “normal”), and for those who do participate, not a uniformly happy situation. Young women are still slut-shamed, as women were in the 80s.And all of this, all of this, not just on college campuses, but the stories of harassment? Well I have reconsidered my position on whether companies should have policies on office relationships. It’s wiser to have a policy of some sort, and buy in from all execs that the policy matters: they should walk the talk and follow up.In conversation about this, people’s response is often to tell me about the happy people in their circle who met at work. I’m good with that. But what’s more important, your job or your relationship? If the relationship is more important, well it’s a lot easier to find another job than it is to find another life partner/family member!And a policy can be anything from requiring disclosure, to not being in relationships with people in your chain of command, to just saying, not allowed.A policy can mediate concerns about favoritism, and a host of other ambiguities that turn into friction on the mission of the business.Had there been a policy at Uber, and skilled HR in the room, this situation would have been headed off at the pass. (Lol, pun originally not intended, and yet I’m kinda pleased with it.)Thanks for writing, Phil. It’s good to “see” you here!

        1. PhilipSugar

          I really, really, don’t think so. We had AIDS and other stuff. No scientific proof, but listening to the women at Grotto’s there is somebody that is shamed but it is not the women. No different than the Duke Powerpoint.Look I believe having sex with somebody is like having two pieces of construction paper glued together. A piece of you permanently comes off, when it is taken apart.It’s easy. Relationship with a subordinate? You are gone, no choice. Relationship with a peer? When I find out somebody has to go, your choice, but I am not so naive to think it happens without my knowledge, I and the rest of your peers better not know.I will tell you it starts at the top.I guarantee Uber had parties and offsites where people “hooked up” I have told people you “hook up” on the road and I am going to tell your partner.

          1. Anne Libby

            I think we’re on the same wavelength, different datapoints on our own college experiences, and your experiences now.And I could not agree more with you on the workplace…and also, nobody should have the workplace as their only place to meet people. (Which is another reason people give me for not setting the boundaries that you’ve got in place.)I highly recommend *American Hookup* to anyone who is a parent or mentor to young people. What you and Lisa are describing is not the college experience I hope for the kids in my family to have. (And heavens, at what college costs today, it’s also not the experience you want to be borrowing huge sums of money to fund.)

          2. PhilipSugar

            I really, really really want to see the methodology for her claim. Near as I can tell it is a random interviews. I say I don’t have scientific proof, but I don’t think she has either.You know as a Dad I tell a girl at least one time a month in semester that early in the night (after work) that she needs to go home and I tell her friends I am a Dad and I have a daughter. I know she just turned 21 or whatever, but she needs to go home with you. Not anybody else but you. They know us, because we are the “old married guys” and we don’t have to have wristbands. I have been told thank you every time by either the bartender or the friends.Edit: Any I see more other “hookups” than I ever imagined. Tons. I just cannot watch a train wreck. I hear the conversation and my head just cocks, but I know that if you are in that condition at 5pm that you in no way are making a good decision that you are not going to regret.

  5. Kirsten Lambertsen

    One thing that’s struck me about the discussion I’m seeing in my Twitter feed is that women are saying they comply when they feel that physical violence might be the alternative. For many women, experience with men tells them it’s always a possibility. And I think we need to hear that fully and include it, always, as we think our way through this together as a society and as women.Men need to take that into consideration in all transactions with every woman, especially with a woman they don’t know well. You don’t know her history. You don’t know what her experience is telling her about what to expect from you, a man. (Though chances are good she’s got some firsthand data telling her that violence is always a possibility with men.) You might think you’re just giving her the pressure she needs to ‘let go’ or whatever. She’s calculating she might not get out of the situation alive if she resists.One thing is *certain*: with all able-bodied men, there is *always* the potential for violence from a woman’s perspective. For many many women, this potential robs them of their voice in that moment, and just saying “no” and trying to walk out presents (true or not) too much risk vs just getting through it.

    1. Anne Libby

      Your comments here reminded me of the Margaret Atwood quote, to the effect that that men are afraid that women will laugh at them, and women are afraid that men will kill us. Looking for that quote, came across this essay: http://www.pbs.org/kued/nos

      1. Kirsten Lambertsen

        Atwood managed to say it with far fewer words than I did ? Great share.

        1. pointsnfigures

          Question: If you meet on a dating app like Tinder, when is the appropriate time for each of you to delete the app from your phone so you aren’t tempted to swipe through it when you are bored? (These are things my generation never had to contend with)

          1. Anne Libby

            OMG, I have no idea. What do your daughters think? (real question, not snarky!)

          2. pointsnfigures

            Think they would prefer it be deleted. (So would their Dad 😉

          3. Kirsten Lambertsen

            Wow, I wouldn’t have the first idea there. Never used a dating app, and the one person I know who has does seem to be a bit addicted to swiping (but he’s prone to addiction, period).My very very close cousin met her husband through a dating site (before there was swiping). They’re incredibly happy and compatible still after many years of marriage. I don’t know at what point she stopped considering dates with other men on the dating app. But I would imagine it’s not that different from the point at which I decided to start turning down dates or even to stop just evaluating men for my romantic interest in them (and them in me) after I started dating my husband.

          4. Drew Meyers

            I’ve been dating someone for about 11 months; we met on Hinge but I was using multiple dating apps at the time. A couple months ago someone at the coworking place I work at mentioned I should delete my profile on Bumble since I’m not single anymore.. lol. That said, I deleted the “app” from my phone after a few dates and I knew it was serious. Point being deleting your app from the phone doesn’t delete your profile from other people seeing it.

        2. Anne Libby

          I think she’s had a while to refine that thought into a quote, lol.

      2. Kirsten Lambertsen

        Wow, that article. 11 years later and literally nothing has changed. It could have been written yesterday.

    2. PhilipSugar

      Now I am going to add a ton of fuel to the fire, but if you have a hammerless S&W 357 titanium magnum in your purse or a Ruger .380,there is going to be some violence and hate laid down, but it isn’t going to be by the man.

      1. Kirsten Lambertsen

        While I appreciate the spirit in which you say that, imagine the first woman who has to actually see through her threat to shoot someone who’s insisting upon sex. There are women in jail right now, with no hope for parole, for shooting their sexual abusers in desperation (in other words, very clear cut cases of self-defense).It’s complicated.

        1. PhilipSugar

          I don’t think you are going to have to use it. And I don’t think you are ever going to get convicted. Where I live you won’t get charged, and I think the first person who is going to hang the jury is a Dad. I don’t believe in carrying all of the time, but somebody you don’t know in a non public place???Look I might be coming off really bad, but if you go to a non-public place with a person???? After drinking???Now in an abusive relationship? We had two of those in our county. No charges.

  6. @KarinBellantoni

    Regarding the dance/ dating and the new world: Women need to speak up confidently and ask a man on date #1- What is your intention? Most men are honest… really. If you ask and they don’t answer thats an answer! I have had men look me in the face and say well…huh… I’m not looking for anything long term or serious and was hoping you wanted to just have fun. I always say ;Thank you for being honest. Whatever someones intention is should be made clear. If there is no match the “date” ends. As for the abuse of power many of these guys are predators. They start with a touch on the knee or a request to go to your place or whatever. If you get a bad feeling in your gut and allow the boundary breaking behavior with small touches and texts at all hours you have passed the test. You are easy to push around.Joanne, one of our biggest issues as a society is that we wait to long for change then it becomes more radical and extreme. we go to extremes to create balance. In the pursuit of balance, some men will be sacrificed. Maybe Aziz is one of them? Great discussion.

    1. Gotham Gal

      Thanks Karin. Agree on the first date ask for sure!

  7. jason wright

    the lost art of the language of love.it’s been reduced to the level of the commercial ‘transaction’ (from the point of view of the alleged perpetrator) in these industries we have thus far seen most of the allegations coming out of, although don’t tell me that some of the most successful of actors (male or female) have never ever leveraged their innate power to get where they want to be in their careers (it takes two to tango). These abusers are a ‘type’ and they are attracted to industries that seem to offer the opportunity to most successfully satisfy their needs (and to neutralise their inadequacies in pursuit of their needs).I think the spectre of divorce laws are a significant context to the behaviour of some powerful/ wealthy men. if single they fear marriage and the potential loss of their wealth to divorce and therefore never ‘commit’ to the dance as an ultimate outcome (a mate for life), or if married the same loss of wealth outcome if caught ‘cheating’ (bad term). I cite the comedian/ actor John Cleese. Not as a abuser, but as a man victimised by the UK’s marriage laws, which are a bad precondition that may help to explain some bad behaviour.