WTF?

Comments (Archived):

1. Fear of lawsuit; fear of career being ended with a false accusation; fear of being in a position where you are guilty before proven innocent; basically just fear and some of it is reasonable. I think in the book Lean In, Sandberg found on Wall St. performance reviews for woman were “by the book” while men’s performance reviews were not. Blame the fear of lawsuits.I disagree with Sandberg’s solution; only group dinners and lunches. What if you are quiet? What if you want to talk to your boss about your career and develop a mentoring relationship. That can only happen in one on one conversation.We agree, sex harassment should never be a part of the workplace or culture. However, there is certainly a lot of fear out there and some of it is not unfounded.

   1. I totally disagree with Sandberg on multiple levels.

      1. I hear your frustration. Totally understand it. I am not sure how to diffuse the problem that you elucidate. We both know it is fucked up but I am not sure of the right path to fix it. Above my pay grade. One issue is that there are workplace relationships-what happens if a false charge comes out of that? I think it starts really young as well. Group dating is not dating (like they do in high school). Protecting high school age kids from feeling the sting of rejection leads to some weird consequences later in life.One thing that our portco HolbergFinancial.com (I am on the board) has done is from the interview process onward set the expectations of what their company culture will be like. Joe has been deliberate about it and I have tried to support him in any way that I can. It’s been great to watch and his tech team is 50/50 men/woman. So far so good. If you met Joe, you’d love him and you’d want your kids to work for him.

         1. It definitely starts young. How? Above my pay grade too.

2. “There will be a comeuppance when women control the world and 36% of them decide that they feel uncomfortable mentoring men and start passing bills that force men of a certain age to have a vasectomy and take away their viagra. Just you wait.”I love this closing because the fact that it sounds so outrageous demonstrates perfectly what a nightmare this environment is for women.The subtext of these non-mentoring dudes is, of course, that *women can’t be trusted not to falsely accuse men.* The construct that women can’t be trusted serves to oppress women. The oppression of women (and by extension, children) is the tip of the spear in the effort to install an authoritarian regime. Again, sounds outrageous. Yet, it’s happening.

3. I remember many years ago being falsely accused by a customer of verbally abusing her in a one-to-one face-to-face meeting. She even made a written statement. Shocking behaviour. It turned out that she had a history of ‘warped’ behaviour and wasn’t believed.Moby vs Natalie Portman. People like to airbrush out aspects of their distant past that inconveniently do not quite ‘fit’ with the their present image and statements.

4. What are you scared of?Missing from this entire discussion is whether mentoring a woman would be acceptable to a person’s wife or girlfriend. Unfortunately that is a big consideration for many men. How do you propose getting by that block? And why should a man (or vice versa) a woman put their relationship in jeopardy by taking on a jealous spouse? You can’t expect them to argue with that emotion regardless of whether it it real, irrational or otherwise. And in no way should a man or woman put what amounts to a strangers interests above their own family if there is a conflict created by doing so.Now you can say that the man should have meetings with other people present as a possible solution. But that is never going to be the same type of mentoring. And in many cases it’s simply not possible and spontaneous like it needs to be.

   1. That too is absurd.

      1. What is absurd? That people are jealous and shouldn’t be? Irrationality forms the basis for a great deal of issues everyday.

         1. If you can’t trust your partner then you should look at yourself and your relationships

            1. I will tell you a story here (what I do). I had a woman cutting my hair for the longest time since the 1980’s (she recently retired). Was actually somewhat attractive when I started using her (at the recommendation of a friend). She meant nothing to me (and I really do mean that) but to every woman I was with since the 1980’s (girlfriends, ex wife, current wife) seemed to be jealous and didn’t want me talking about anything I said to her. In one case an ex girlfriend (an MD, radiologist) was so bothered that she insisted that I find someone else to cut my hair! (So let’s say that again: an MD was jealous of a stylist..).Anyway at a certain point the stylist’s husband lost his sales job and she suggested that I meet him and see if I could help. He was an absolutely stunning guy. Like super good looking (I can only tell extremes with men). Anyway she used to make a point of saying that she never had jealousy and neither did he. Despite both of them being above average in looks. This guy was like a model honestly. Rugged I could only wish I looked like that (actually not I don’t like attention). And she used to allways tell me how screwy it was that (whoever I was with) was jealous (not of her but just generally stories I would tell). Note: There is nothing special about me in the looks department unlike her husband. Well after years of marriage with this man sure enough after their only child was out of the house they got divorced. I don’t know why that happened. Maybe the ‘I don’t care’ actually meant ‘I am not bonded enough to care if I lose this person’.One last thing about trust. I suspect from reading stories of what happens to otherwise strong and successful men that it goes way way beyond that ‘trust your partner’ in terms of what actually happens when someone is confronted with a particular opportunity.

            2. The best thing I’ve read about this topic said that by doing this – where they think it is not ok to meet with or mentor women – men are trading a risk of a sexual harassment suit with the very real (and more likely) risk of a gender discrimination suit. As a woman who has been sexually harassed at most companies I’ve worked (ranging from working as a waitress at a bar and having the owner come in wasted and profess his love to me in front of all my coworkers to working as a consultant in a big firm and having my legs be a topic of discussion) — I have only once considered taking any action and that is when my intelligence was questioned for being a woman. In my opinion — women are a LOT more likely to sue for being sidelined for gender than any inappropriate sexual comment that is made our way. Also — I’m sorry but I don’t think my career should be sidelined or compromised because your wife isn’t comfortable with you working with women. Certain professions and jobs call for travel and meals between sexes – e.g. consulting. I have had a male boss refuse to take me on a trip which I should have been on to do my job because he was uncomfortable traveling with me alone. I’m sorry — in this instance, HE should not be doing the job. If your wife is uncomfortable with you doing your job (which might involve traveling with women), YOU need to find the new job. Not me.

            3. What you are saying doesn’t apply to me (personally) I don’t work for anyone else and don’t have to answer to anyone else or find another job because I have created my own ‘job’.I don’t know how to answer many of your other points since this is not a situation that I deal with at all. I can do anything I want to do and have more freedom than most people. I don’t even take early morning meetings I don’t have to.If your wife is uncomfortable with you doing your job (which might involve traveling with women), YOU need to find the new job. Not me.I am curious though why you think a male employee should care more about a female employee and being fair to her so she can advance than his own wife who he is close to and has presumably a long term relationship? Legally of course if there is a legal reason (or clear job requirement) that someone needs to be able to interact with a woman then that part is fine and makes sense.You want a shocker now? My wife is a Physician. She would do (and I am 100% not kidding) rectal exams on male state troopers at her job after I first met her. Obviously that was part of the job and so obviously I accepted that. As she would if I was a Physician and had to examine intimate parts of a woman. But that type of activity or job duty is not optional. This entire discussion and my points are based on activities (mentorship) which are optional and not something baked into the job requirement. If it is then any spouse has to accept it plain and simple. If it’s optional then that’s an entirely different story.I did mentor someone when I was single before I met my current wife. I helped a woman (she was married) a great deal with her product packaging and other business ideas and she ended up getting on Shark Tank two times (2nd and 3rd season iirc). Would I do that today? Not the same I am married now so probably not. But I did do it when I was single (and other things obviously over time). By the way when I helped the woman her husband showed up unannounced for one meeting (to check me out I assume). What I did was optional and I enjoyed it. She thanked me profusely in front of my (new) wife at the viewing party for the episode she was on. That felt great (being newly married like that..)

            4. YES!!!’

            5. Jealousy as I have mentioned is a non rational response to a situation. Think of anytime you are waiting for a typical and important medical test result. Until you get the result if you are like most people you will be quite anxious beyond reason. And especially if you have been burned in the past where you didn’t expect a bad result (or were told not to worry) and then a bad thing happened. So to tell a woman (or a man) to simply ‘not be jealous don’t worry’ is not going to work. It’s like telling a parent not to panic when something happens at the school their child attends. Emotion takes over.As far as ‘trust’ there are many things that happen when you are in a dating relationship. You don’t get everything that you want. So if you get someone who is great with most things but they are ‘reasonably’ jealous you are not going to go for ‘door number two’ on that factor alone. Now super jealous (stalking grade!) sure that makes sense. But normal jealousy is actually more normal than not.

5. “All numbers are fungible.”Fungible means “of a nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind.”I don’t understand what you are saying.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

6. .I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that men are reluctant to mentor women, in part, because they want to avoid any potential liability or accusation of wrong doing.When I was in business, I never took a one-on-one meeting with a woman without having my door open, the woman across what was a very wide desk, and my female assistant coming into my office to check on us at the five minute mark.I was a prude, but I had had first hand knowledge of an incident of false accusation against a colleague of mine and I didn’t want to go anywhere near there.I had a lot of women in my company. I provided superior opportunity and rewards, but I had a certain management style that was going to preclude that nonsense from creeping into my company.Today, I would be even more cautious. I often meet with a woman mentee, but I make damn sure it is in a public coffee shop and we travel separately. It is just caution.Given the recent Joe Biden hugging/hair sniffing incidents, I am also less of a hugger — except for family — than ever.So, the bigger question is this — who owns this outcome? I don’t think that this started with or is related to Harvey Weinstein or #MeToo in the context of the front page of the NY Post.Nor do I think there is anything even remotely unfair about a woman demanding a high level of dignity, respect, consideration, professionalism. A man should be a gentleman and the first test of a gentleman is does he make others — men and women — feel comfortable in his presence.It is also perfectly understandable that good men are just not willing to risk the potential liability. Is that in any way unfair? Who owns that reaction?It is odd to read something like — ” . . . not that far in the future, our country will be predominantly brown, black, Asian, Latino and not white and women will have more control of the cash.” I thought we were trying to break down ethnic, racial, gender distinctions. Thought we were trying to transcend identity politics in the world, American politics, business, and society.None of these things will have an impact on men of good heart or men of an evil intent. Good men don’t need it to be gentlemen. Bad men aren’t going to pay any attention because they are ….. wait for it ….. bad men.I don’t see the connection between abortion and the behavior of men and women in the work place. Let’s be honest here. The American Journal of Public Health in 2017 published a study “Population Group Abortion Rates and Liftetime Incidence of Abortion, US 2008-2014.” It is the most authoritative document of its kind, alas, it is now 5 years out of date.In that report, we learned:1. Abortion rates since 2000 are declining except for white women which is steady at 10/1000 women aged 15-44.2. Abortion rates amongst black, non-Hispanic women, same age group, have declined from 48 to 27.3/1000. This rate is almost 3X white women.3. Abortion rates amongst Hispanic women has declined from 36/1000 to 16.3/1000.4. Taken together, rates for black and Hispanic women is 5X white women.What this tells us is that this is not a boardroom problem or a business problem. This is a social problem and the problem is ethnically and racially impacted.Side note: Tne entire issue of abortion is beginning to lose its fangs and virulence because the rates of abortion are beginning to trend downward so powerfully. The people most exercised by abortion today are politicians and zealots.The recent focus on late term abortions is a faux issue. The country is trending 70%+ in opposition to the last minute abortion notion now enshrined in states like New York. It is a litmus of Democrat politics amongst the Dem Election2020 candidates, but it is a terrible issue amongst the populace.This can be seen in the many reactionary “heartbeat” bills coming forward and passing in a greater number of states.Most of the support for the “day before birth” out-of-the-womb viability abortion right is coming from the extreme left. It polls almost 100% against amongst Independent women.No man is looking for trouble on this issue.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

   1. When I was in business, I never took a one-on-one meeting with a woman without having my door open, the woman across what was a very wide desk, and my female assistant coming into my office to check on us at the five minute mark.I haven’t had in office meetings for as long as I can remember. However when I am dealing with women for renting out properties I am always keeping a really large and obvious distance from them. The reason? Has nothing to do at all with the fear of any accusations. I just don’t want them to be uncomfortable in any way. It’s really that simple. I am also super careful not to crack any jokes (or be cute or appealing in speech or mannerisms) or to honestly say or do anything that is not business like (and it’s always been that way I have a completely straight poker face). I also suspect that even though you didn’t mention that you did the same for that reason as well. You want people to feel comfortable. I have though given business advice. In one case the advice was that the potential tenant should have a more spa like space than what I was offering. She took that to her ‘investors’ and they agreed and that deal died! I had actually also written to her in a proposal that I made that I would be glad to give her business advice ‘time permitting’ (since I thought she was smart to consider (haha) what I was saying). In this case I don’t think my wife would take issue since it was a business relationship and even though optional would be good for business.

7. Sexism is a systemic problem. Systemic problems require systemic solutions. Here is how we are trying to solve this on a macro level:At the personal level:– Better communication skills. Openness, understanding, empathy.– Men and women can be friends. End of statement. — Get rid of the ‘men are from mars, women from venus fallacies”. Talking to another human is no different.– “Men need to talk about their feelings” doesn’t mean literally men need to talk about “feelings”. It means that men need to discuss—really discuss–the ISSUES that people like pointsnfigures and JLM and Jason brought up—issues like jealously and trust and fear. You’re all talking about feelings, in every comment.Parenting and education– Speaking of empathy — we all know that boys will usually only read books that have a male protagonist, but girls read books/see movies that have a male or female protagonist. What do you think happens if a *never* reads a book where the main character is a girl? If he *never* puts himself in the place of an *I* character who is female? He doesn’t develop empathy for woman because he literally never puts himself in their place. This must change.– Get rid of harmful gender stereotypes and the early messages that boys or girls “should” be one way or another. — Openness and embracing gender and sexual fluidityIn work environments, businesses, corporations– Hire more diversity of all kinds– Encourage work cultures that make gender/race/other equality the status quo.– Policies that prohibit discrimination of mentorship based on gender, etc.– Look for ways to build mentorship into organizations in non-traditional ways– Fund startups who have diversity and equality at the core of their business model / operating planAt the societal / governmental / institutional level– Rights for women are intertwined with other types of sexism. Absolutely agree that what is happening with abortion rights is linked to other forms of sexism. A host of studies show that women who who have children don’t advance and don’t get paid as much as women who are childless. Forcing women to have children is one way for men to content that economic control. — Encourage women / marginalized groups to run for office at every level. Find innovative ways to give them the money and resources to do so. — Support equal rights for everyone. Don’t focus just one women, focus on equality.

   1. Equality!!!

8. I absolutely love your last paragraph.

   1. ?

9. I’ve been around the block a few times, and have no examples of “false accusations” in my circles. ZERO. Much less career ending “false accusations.”(And the number of formal accusations I’ve heard about, again in my circle — not in the press — is pretty small. Most people, when harassed, clam up. We may tell a friend or partner, we may warn people whom to avoid.So that whole argument, as far as I’m concerned, is bs. And I’m old enough to remember the Tailhook scandal. I remember seeing something about it on the news about it back then with my dad, at the time he may have still been in the Naval reserves. He said, “Those guys were always pigs.” (Part of the reason I remember this so well is because it was unusual for my dad to speak so sharply ill of anyone else, much less fellow naval aviators. Much less to me.)Men, if you’re suggesting that we need to have this problem persistently because of lying females, I’d suggest that you get your fellow men in order. Invariably, you know who the bad actors are.Geez.

   1. I’ll comment on the con with the fear that I get branded. Yes that is a fear and the fact that it is, is troubling. Not as troubling as the problems that got us to this point, but troubling. Saying that fear is ridiculous is as ridiculous as saying there was/is no problem. That is the root of the problem.You can look at that stat and say one of two things: “There will be a comeuppance when women control the world and 36% of them decide that they feel uncomfortable mentoring men and start passing bills that force men of a certain age to have a vasectomy and take away their viagra. Just you wait.”That gives me a warm and fuzzy. Makes me want to go out and vote so that becomes reality. Makes me want to take a risk mentoring someone. And you take a risk mentoring anybody no matter the gender. That is a fact. So now I want to mentor someone that says I absolutely love your last paragraph? Think about if I rewrite that from a male point of view and post it…….think of the reaction.Or why/how could the 36% feel this way? Could they legitimately have a fear?Sure you can say the majority of men accused of bad behavior are guilty. I’ll accept that. But I won’t accept guilty before proven innocent or it’s fine to hurt somebody who is innocent because of others or past actions they had nothing to do with (and you do that when you say I am not going to accept a certain type of person for a job. period). No more than I will accept that somebody is guilty when they live in a certain neighborhood because in fact the majority of crimes happen there or turn down somebody for any reason other than they were not the best person.When you mentor someone, sometimes it is not going to work out, and most certainly if it does work out somebody is going to feel jealous (not sexually but purely for the fact that you are helping someone get ahead)When you mentor someone it is a asymmetric situation of who has more to gain/lose.Also part of being a mentor is saying things that you wouldn’t say to just anyone. I’ll take an extreme example: I’ve had someone tell me I should wear better clothes drive a nicer car. Now do I attribute that to anything other than I think they are an idiot? No, but I think in certain male/female context it could be a big deal. But there are smaller things like telling someone “suck it up buttercup” (a woman told me that one) not about something egregious but something small, like my boss doesn’t express they appreciate me as much as they should.Then put in the fact that the mentor has the “power” (although I’d argue I learn and am mentored by those “below” me or younger than me all the time).And yes Anne I have seen somebody get falsely accused. But that small datapoint is really as irrelevant as yours, the problem is that if you are promoting an attitude like the one espoused in this post, yes you are going to get a third of men that simply say: “fuck it” not worth it.All of this does is repress things and it’s like squeezing a balloon, you think you squeezed the air out of one area but it pops out at another. You know I have been on record saying that I was shocked at seeing bad behavior, I always have firmly believed hugs are not appropriate if initiated by a man to a woman. But I also have been on record saying that polls are going to be wrong. Why? Because people are being conditioned that if they don’t step in line if they dare challenge a post like this they will get stomped on. Yes you pushed the air out of that part of the ballon, but don’t be surprised when it pops back out where you don’t expect it. Focus on letting the air out of the ballon.

      1. I hear you loud and clear…we should focus on figuring out how to let the air out of the balloon.

      2. Phil, I’ve “known” you on the internets for years and know you’re a thoughtful guy. No “branding.” I appreciate your thoughtful comment. I actually came over here this morning to continue venting my spleen on this, not knowing you had commented.First, to letting the air out of the balloon? If we women could have done this by being nice, there would be no air in the balloon. I think that it’s on men to take care of that. Instead of fearful talk about what might happen, maybe men could talk to one another about perservering in the face of fear. Of what the real circumstances and statistics look like. About what the risks really are.I don’t know how to do this, but t it’s not going to happen voluntarily without the thoughtful action of many, many men. And I’m hopeful at some of what I see in younger generations.Getting stomped on? The increased policing of women’s health care is the stomping. Bring it.Second, to vent my spleen.Men, every woman you know has been harassed. Your mom. Your grandma. Your wife and any sisters, daughters, cousins, nieces. The girl who babysat for your kids. (Possibly by another dad of kids she babysat.)Every single woman.I have been harassed at work, though the structure of how I now work lowers my risk, a privileged white lady business owner with an elite education. That said, I still get harassed on the street, at the gym, on the train, my goodness I guess we never outgrow it. I have had my boundaries tested, in this century, by someone who wound up in the news for Me Too. Not when I was an innocent young thing.I can’t imagine what it’s like to be a McDonald’s worker, or a housekeeper in a hotel.So yes, let’s respect people’s fear. But let’s also continue to intelligently discuss the *actual* risks — what they are, and ways to mediate them. And who is really at risk.

         1. Every woman has been harassed. Agree 100%Not right. Agree 100%Changing…..I would say yes, and yes men are saying it is not right.Policing women’s healthcare. No going to say I agree or disagree what is happening, but I would tell you the people doing it do not view it as stomping on women’s rights, they feel they are protecting the unborn’s rights. Please don’t argue because I am not arguing the point or the effect only the intention, and I assure you the intention is the latter and when you attribute the intention to the former you don’t help your cause with those people and I’m sure you don’t care. Just reporting not judging.

            1. On the reporting and not judging side, we all know women who have had a necessary, lifesaving D&C due to fetal death or miscarriage. The fact that this is undiscussed in this debate is interesting to me.

            2. “Please don’t argue…” You… you just… you just directed a woman as to what she’s allowed to talk about in a conversation about women’s rights. You do see the irony there? I’m sure it can feel exhausting to get called out a lot, as a white guy, but I just gotta call that one out.

      3. Respectfully, your time is better spent talking to fellow men than it is trying to set women straight about how to manage their outrage at being treated as non-persons.When a person who is born into the power position in a society says to someone who isn’t, “well, I’m not going to change my bad behavior because I don’t like how you reacted to it,” it serves to strengthen the imbalance of power.While your reaction might seem completely reasonable in a situation where everything else is equal, it’s a cop out in this context.

         1. Agree with you Kirsten.

         2. I wanted to wait until this was old. When I argue with somebody like LE and say, hey if you can’t travel with women and that’s part of your job…..then you aren’t doing your job, or anything else even when it comes to religion because I’m catholic and he’s a jew etc. He doesn’t call my integrity into question. I just said I don’t want to argue about intent because I am not taking a stand on whether it’s right plain and simple. I can say here is why people voted for Trump, not that I support him, or necessarily support their view, but here is why.I said if I stuck my head up somebody would object and this is why you have the 36%. Do the math, stick your head up, get it taken off, or simply don’t play (nothing anybody can say).It isn’t about the 36% don’t speak to other men they do, it isn’t that they like bad behavior, they don’t and they don’t look the other way like they used to,But the lesson taught here is shut up and tow the line with no questions or get stomped on. So smart people (not me) simply shut up except when it comes to private actions and polls and then you get the 36%.

            1. Fair enough

            2. Do you feel stomped on by my comment? I keep re-reading it to try to understand how I’ve questioned your integrity or stomped on you? I didn’t intend it that way. I do not question your integrity one iota.I was, however, trying to point out what I (and many) see as the problem with your argument. I question the soundness of it many iotas.

            3. I’ll just change gender of your comment. How do you feel?Respectfully, your time is better spent talking to fellow women than it is trying to set men straight about how to manage their outrage at being treated unfairly by a small subset of women (you should have put in that it was a small set of men treating women as non persons not broad brushing it).When a person who has gained power and wants to use it like a club against everybody guilty and innocent says, “well, I’m not going to change my bad behavior because I don’t like how you reacted to it,” it serves to strengthen the imbalance of power.

            4. How do I feel? The same way I feel every day when all sorts of men around me and in my media tell me what to do and how to feel.The lesson taught here is shut up and tow the line with no questions or get stomped on. So smart people (not me) simply shut up except when it comes to private actions and polls and then you get… #MeToo.

10. There are 70 to 100 shark attacks (false accusations) worldwide every year, 5 to 15 result in death (men getting fired). Over 100 million sharks (women) are taken (sexually harrassed) every year by humans (men). That is approximately 11,000 sharks killed (women harassed) every hour.2 “JAWS” movies do not make it dangerous to swim in the water, people. STOP HUNTING SHARKS. STOP BLAMING WOMEN.

    1. ?